Hey, everybody, it's Patrick Escolas from Banyan Technology’s Tire Tracks Podcast episode. Today I have with me, Andy Ferrand of TMCO. He is a managing partner. Andy, thank you so much for being here today.

Hi, Pat. How you doing?

Hey, I'm doing great. I know I always say this, but I love your mustache, and it is – it may be, it's up there with the top facial hair we've had on the podcast so far.

Well, you're doing pretty good there yourself. I've had mine since I was a junior in high school, so.

I think that if you just put a hat on, you could be an extra in Tombstone right now, right next to Kurt Russell. It's up there with that quality of mustache. I love it.

Thank you.

Andy, I know we've worked together, but we're going to pretend that we have it for a little bit here, just for the fact that other people are watching and listening. I want to talk to you about who you are, how long you've been in freight, and what you and TMCO do. I'm going to step back and ask questions a little bit and just let you go. 

Well, I guess a little background. I'm one of the managing partners with Transportation Management Co-op, or TMCO. Of course, we joined up with Banyan a couple of years ago, and it's been a pleasurable experience. A little background on me, I operate out in the Indianapolis, Indiana area. Most of us work remote in management with the organization. I got into freight by accident in 1978.

I got to hear by accident. Trip fell, and next thing you knew, you were executing shipments?

Well, it's like, somebody quit, and the owner of the company said “Hey, why don't you do freight, too?“ And the rest is history. I became Vice President of Logistics and Warehousing for one of the largest, fastener distributors at the time in Northern America.

Was that a big jump all of a sudden?

No, they had been in business since the early 40s.

Okay.

We were a peer distributor, not a manufacturer. We were the largest. Had 45 branches and centralized warehousing. Scoop to nuts, basically.

Yeah.

From there in ’99, I left because I enjoyed the freight part more than I did reconciling inventory and warehouse management side. I spent ’99 to 2008 in LTL sales and management with Holland Motor Freight, which is long gone now since YRC.

I was going to say, rest in peace, Holland.

Yeah. Holland was an excellent carrier. Then in 2008, as I was a regional sales director for Holland, some of my associates had started TMCO, mostly all ex-Holland people.

Okay.

I was invited to come join and the rest is history, I guess. So –

Yeah. History still in the making. Yeah.

Yeah. We hope so.

Now, now you talk about being with TMCO. I know that when we worked together, you're very ingratiated, you deal with a lot of auto manufacturing, both directly and some of the tertiary pieces. I'd say that the United States, still a big auto manufacturing hub. What's that like, compared to fasteners, or other industries that you touch?

Oh, of course, when I was in the fastener side, nothing was as techy as it is now. We were just putting in a warehouse management system and paperless, full pick, you know all. That was pretty much right in the beginnings. Automotive traditionally, has always been a little faster pace. Faster business is more of a inventory on hand.

Mm-hmm.

If you don't have the product, you're going to miss the sale, so to speak.

A lot of, out of on demand and just, ‘I need it yesterday‘ type stuff within automotive?

Yeah. Opportunity sales, because you have the inventory. Yeah.

Okay.

That means one of those things. Which goes against all the accountants‘ theories on inventory terms and finance, but it is the way business is done in the fastener business. Unless, it's production fasteners. That's a little bit different. It's all gotten specialized now. I think from an automotive standpoint, I think there's automotive in 15 years ago and I think, there's the automotive related trends today.

Mm-hmm.

I was thinking through this as you and I talked about having these discussions, and some of the observations I've made is automotive is moving away from LTL. They continue to do so. It's LTL is a necessary evil for them, because they're wanting to put everything on a dedicated truck, or a specialized cartage in most cases. LTL is just the break that they can't figure out what to do with, or doesn't fit in the puzzle, or the milk runs, or the specialized providers.

That makes sense to what I've seen, too. But why is that? Is that because they want less hands on it? They want more control? Or is it a freight cost choice there? What would be a shift from LTL to a full truckload?

It's always not at least less expensive, at least freight for freight.

Okay.

The benefits that you have is scheduling inventory, arrivals, production planning, things that you can do. Because on LTL, you've got a window of delivery, 8 to 5 on hopefully, the day that they've committed to their service, which more and more carriers aren't really committing to that service without a premium upgrade. With a milk run, or dedicated, or specialized services, you know at 6.30 every morning, every other day, or seven totes of widgets are going to be in production. You can back that all the way through your accounting system, and that's one of the tools they use to get down to the lean inventory management and the inventory turn process, which backs into quality control and several different areas.

I think, something else that drives it indirectly is the green renewable energy, no trash, no waste. You'll see more and more of that. The goal is have all returnables, no package, no damage. Well, returnable damage. But nothing to throw away. I was thinking about this. I went through the Toyota Princeton, Indiana plant several years ago. One of the things they pointed out is there were no trash cans in the building. There was no rubbage. The only thing they had to throw away that they had not figured out what to do with was the lunchroom, which was, I think, there was over 3,000 people working there. You can imagine the lunchroom.

There was there was some good amount of trash on the lunchroom on itself.

Yeah. They had even turned off the lights in the front of the vending machines to save the electric.

See, that's that's crazy to me. That's to the level of, and who knows how long ago this was, but I remember hearing a rumor that Walmart in the men's section on Thursday mornings would have the lights off, because for whatever – they had enough analysis that they knew that guys didn't shop Thursday mornings for whatever reason. Something crazy like that.

The story behind the vending machines was that an employee had turned it in as a cost savings. It was very minimal, but they implemented it, because of the culture. They wanted to incentivize others to not overlook anything no matter how big or small, which you can imagine as a – 

I like that.

To me was pretty noteworthy.

Yeah. Plus, there's something about saying that your employee, whatever level, had an idea and you implemented it. That's got to boost your confidence in your employer, too. That's smart from a lot of different ways. I like that. Now, when we talk about you, you were talking about touring a plant now and moving the truck load. Tell me about when things don't go 100% with the automotive industry and it all being about the line up time. What does that look like? Because I know you handle a lot of exploits, a lot of a lot of when, “Hey, I don't know where this is. I don't know what happened, but I needed it yesterday. Andy, get it to me.”

The the acceptable theory is that through your – but your freight terms, your freight budget and your accounting savings on inventory term, along with not having obsolescent inventory, because you're turning it every day, especially if you have a quality problem, you don't have a warehouse full of the widget, you have to go through it, right? You ran out every 24 hours. I think the accepted fact is you're going to have some expedite, and you're going to have to have some special handling to compensate for the fact that the providers are going to fail.

I'll have a story about that a little bit later. But 99% isn't good enough anymore. The expedite comes in, and usually the expedite becomes an after the fact discussion, because everybody abuses this all month long and then every month, somebody's looking at that expedite list and most of these companies saying, “Why did we do this?” Nobody wants to live in the moment of – Memories get pretty faded at that point.

Yeah. Captain Hindsight comes in and goes, “I don't think this was a good choice. Why would we do something like that?”

Most companies will tell you, they should not be expediting anything. But there’s a lot of it.

But the reality of the business is that when you need it somewhere, you got to get it there and there's no excuse. It's going to help you out.

Well, some organizations with their – depending on who you're manufacturing for vendors are under contract for downtime.

Oh.

Then through the whole COVID couple of years, you literally had delays on the water. Then even domestic suppliers for hand to mouth, because they could not get components off the water to do what they were doing. We literally had situations with a lot of our account base automotive related, high production, where it was just every day, you picked up a skid that they got, ran that night on shift and ran it. You could have a daily expedite set up just to run what they could produce into the plant. There's a lot of that still going on.

Yeah. I can imagine that there's still probably a good amount of hangover from COVID. Even though the – a lot of us have moved to what we call the new normal within that. What do you see as the – what's the most prevalent, and we'll call it this term the hangover from COVID with a near world and within the clients you handle?

In my opinion, would be from a carriers group was the right sizing. In other words, carriers went through a period of time where they knew they could not haul everything. They didn’t have the labor and the support to do it either. I think most of your carriers took advantage of the time to right size and look at margins.

Got you.

Customers, they were doing business with that were at an acceptable margin. If you can't haul at all, what's left? Well, let's haul the stuff we make more money at. I think you saw – I call that right sizing. I think you saw some carriers. It was okay to have some equipment on the fence now, because if you're going to put it out there just to haul more watermelons, let's not do that. I think that was a product of that period we went through. Then also, I think it reset the rate structure.

Everybody, carriers were just forcing increases, huge increases. Even though here in the last year, they backed off a little bit and you can negotiate a little bit more than you could for those two years. It’s still moved the bar, though. What used to be $10, you're negotiating out $15 now to get a savings. They were very successful at raising the water level on things.

And keeping it raised after everything settled back down.

I mean, I think that's the big change. I think long-haul providers is probably one of the more critical issues in the LTL world.

Okay. Tell me about that.

Regional, you have a lot more options. A lot more modes. You can get a lot more creative, say less than 500 miles.

Sure, sure.

When you get into the longer LTL market, you only have a handful of choices now. I mean, look at YRC closing. You only have a handful of choices and those choices are not going to haul that without acceptable margins.

Right. It's got to be worth their weight.

Yeah, which forces companies, I think. If I'm a company, I'm going to look at that and react with regional vendors. I'm going to look for frost docks. I'm going to look for things to get my product closer to me, without destroying my inventory charts.

Do you think that's something that will change with the long haul? Or do you think that's probably just going to be how it is for the foreseeable future?

I think the problem with the long haul is there's going to be less of it.

Okay.

You're going to have a handful of carriers fighting over what's left. At some point, there won't be. There may be less long-haul carriers in a few years than there are today.

I think to your point, one of the things I've seen with my client base is that many of the shippers are opening up new warehouse, or distribution centers on other parts of the country, so that way, they don't have to rely on those long haul and those margins that they're paying for. Yeah. That's probably the side effect there in the long haul game. Might not go back to the way it was before that.

Oh, I don't think it will. I mean, I think it will dry up a little bit. I think people will wonder why you're moving something from California at 500 pounds a skid. There's got to be a more acceptable option there. I think from working with us, we have warehousing and fulfillment. Our warehousing side has been one of the bigger growth items of the last two years, year and a half.

It's been huge.

Company. Everybody's looking for it. It goes with the fact that nobody wants to increase inventory. They want to get inventory closer. Somebody's got to be that cog that hangs on to you. You can't forecast the containers on the water like you used to. You can't even demand service with containers anymore. You get it when you get it, right? They'll even penalize you if you don't unload it real quick when it's a month late. Somewhere, you've got to have a relay for that. You've got to have a sponge that soaps that up and hangs on to it for you. I think, so warehousing crosstalk is a business to be in.

You think that, the growth at least on TMCO side and beyond that, just in the industry, is as a response to the lack of control from getting things overseas, or?

If you look at the Japanese manufacturers, one of their goals is to have all their providers and their vendors as close as possible, sometimes within 50 miles. I mean, look at Honda in Ohio, they have a campus with all their vendors. If you look at Nissan in Jackson, Mississippi, all their vendors are on site, even connected to the building, pushing into the production lines.

Really?

Yeah. The Japanese, very progressive.

Okay.

I think, one of the things, and I thought about this a lot, after COVID, you heard a lot about pulling your component business, you're moving away from your Asian manufacturers, China, some of the places that are a little more volatile these days. I mean, even Taiwan right now is, I think people are holding their breath a little bit, as depending on what's going to go on over on the Asian market. I think that people want to talk that, but I'm watching to see how that would ever be accomplished. Maybe you could convert maybe a little bit to Mexico. But as far as bringing that back into North American and domestically, there's no tooling left in this country. You're several years away from the tooling, the stamps, the dyes, the production facilities that are now in China, for example, to gear up. If you wanted to make your widget here today, you would not have the tooling to do it, like CNC machines.

Yeah.

Well, Canada and China, I think are the only two big producers left that's building CNC machines.

If we want to get back to controlling it, or if somebody wants to get back to controlling it closer to on our border, they'd have to put some serious infrastructure in place over quite a few years.

It would take several years. Then in our country, you would be fighting legislation and you'd also be fighting OSHA and the green, the green EPAs. That's why we don't plate in this country anymore.

Got you.

Nothing's plated. I think, it's a watch and see. Probably won't see it in my lifetime. But this country is so far away from being the production manufacturing giant it was in the 50s today, because like I said, the facilities and the tooling is just not there.

That's a very interesting point. One of the things I did want to talk to you about is, and I think I'm going back a few points here and go back to the expedite, and some of these things that need high attention and looking more at the progressive use of technology. You had mentioned it before when you started, technology wasn't really a piece, but now it is. How important is technology, a TMS, the API in your day-to-day usage with these clients you've had forever? How has that made it easier? How has that changed it? What does that look like for you from your case?

Well, I think, first of all, just from the very basic shipping office functionality anymore, LTL pricing, rate basis, SSOR applications have all gotten so complex. It used to be, the old tactic was we're going to have everybody bid off a single rate base. Then that way, we know everybody's 50% is the same 50%, right? Well, I think there's going to be a push by the carriers to move away from, well, first of all, it's more efficient for them to operate off their own rate basis.

Correct.

Than it is somebody else. I think the carriers are going to push more for their – it only takes a couple of big ones, like FedEx, or an Old Dominion or somebody to say, “We're not going to go outside our organizational rate basis anymore.” Maybe rate basis become not static anymore. Maybe they move every week, like fuel surcharges do between lanes. If you don't have the technology and the tools like a Banyan system, basically do the math every time you're doing to bill a lady and deliver you the best net result in options. You're not going to be able to take advantage of your lane pricing and your pricing applications based on classes and breaks and such. I don't know how you were going to function without the TMS. It's already here. There's just some people that haven't made the jump.

Yeah. One of the things I think I hear is the most common when, either going to a new prospect, or talking about process flow, is there an LTL specifically, maybe some truckload within this too, has the routing guide died? Because you're like – What is that like? Because I will hear clients say like, “Hey, do you know? And how does that, how do I get a routing guide from that?” What is that like today? Do you need it? Is there any time when it's relevant anymore?

There's no such thing now. Nobody publishes one of those. You basically – online internet, a website for carriers has replaced the routing guide.

Okay.

Then, of course, your system drives off the carrier’s routing, internal routing guide. Routing guides are non-existent. We'll never be back. Yeah.

They're gone. They're gone. They're gone and they ain’t coming back.

When I first started an LTL sales, everybody would deliver a ring binder to your shippers, your accounts.

Okay.

Then you would run around all the time updating a page in your ring binder. Now, the upside of that was it give you a reason to go in and see the customer, right?

Sure. You had to go in and physically change what was on that one page.

You would literally go in and say, “Look, I need to replace page 61. Here's your new page.” We've come a long way from that. Yeah, it's no round. It's all either in the customer, the carriers, internet side, or if you link all your carriers together. It goes back to technology. You can literally run your company by going into each carrier. You want to use this website and create in a bill leading in their website, and making shipment. You can limp through this process. But in reality, on application, is anybody going to really do that three times to see who the best one is to use? No, they just do, “Well, these guys always seem to be okay on this one.” Well, all of a sudden, you don't realize they're not okay at less than 500 pounds, right?

By consolidating everything to one view, one screen through a bandit system, for example, you're going to get that comparison in seconds and always make that best decision. As you know, there's even follow up reporting that allow you to show when you did not make the most economical decision.

You might have a good reason for not making them best economically.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah. No. and that makes a lot of sense. I think that – first off, I love the visualization of being – because I cold called back in my day, literally knocked on door to door. I can only imagine if it was to come in and say, “Hey, how are you guys doing? I need to go change the number in this one page. Then I'll be out of your hair.” I love the idea of that. “Oh, don't mind me. Just updating the binder. I'll see you guys next month,” kind of thing. I love that.

To that point, and I think you talked about a story. Going back to the automotive lines, about a few weeks ago, I was talking to one of my clients, and I'll leave specifics out of it, but he had talked about the cost of every minute in automotive line is down. Instead of being at the mercy of carriers, or even calling someone like you and saying, “Hey, give me an expedite,” what he found was it was more cost effective for this guy to build a helipad and to have a pilot in Detroit, take a Chinook and grab two or three pallets at a time, and run it there, because of the cost of the line being down. Is that crazy? You live that. I heard it and I thought it was crazy. Is that not the craziest thing? Is there some latch in here?

I mean, we've had dedicated air freight in that $30,000 to $60,000 rank. 

Okay.

You always sweat when you set one of those up, because memories are short when that invoice comes through as to why somebody did something.

Yeah. You're like, “I need you to sign this with all the expletives you told me how fast it needs to be.” Yeah.

Yeah. You certainly don't want to – I have problems with the approval on a $60,000 shipment.

Yeah, because then, you're left in the wind. Yeah.

That goes on more than you think. Then somebody's usually always looking up for the blank game to push back on somebody for compensation for that. Usually, it's the vendors. The vendor and the customer and who's fault.

Yeah. Now, you talk about a 67 [inaudible 0:26:56] that kind of a story. You've been in the game for, I won't do the math here, mostly because I'm not good at it. But what's your craziest freight story, whether you heard it, whether you're involved in it? I want to hear something fun, something interesting, Andy.

Well, I think when we started talking, I said sometimes 99%, you know –

Isn't good enough.

Isn’t good enough.

Yeah.

I'll go back to, I had an account, a large account that manufactured radiators in southern Indiana for years. We did all their inbound. I don't know if you know where Travis City, Michigan, but that's a northern peninsula there in Michigan, down to southern Indiana. That that's a long haul. We were actually, next day and in that lane, and I'll tell you why it was so long ago, it was because I can remember the story. We were talking about a shipment. After discount was $58 with fuel. It was a minimum. You can imagine. But we did a lot of shipments for this customer. We misloaded a shipment out of Traverse City and took it to Memphis, Tennessee, instead of dropping it at the Indy terminal and delivering Friday morning, in this case, to the plant.

I get a call. At Holland, one of the things back in the day that they could get very creative at was after-hours line haul. We actually put that skid on a line haul driver that night, ran him out of route to Cincinnati from Memphis, dropped that at midnight on the customer's dock. They ran 24 hours. No shutdown, no line down, no nothing. We actually got it there in time.

Awesome.

I'm high-fiving the guys and thanking, “Hey, this is great.” Cause sometimes it's how you fix things that you're measured on, right?

Amen to that.

Not necessarily that you had a problem.

Sure.

I get a call from my direct contact and he says, “Well, you better come down here Monday and see the plant manager.” I said, “Well, what's going on?” He goes, “Well, that shipment.” I said, “Well, that shipment got there before there was a problem.” He says, “I know.” He says, “But you know such and such.” It was his boss. He actually came from a Ford Motor company. He was on the high side of the whole automotive mentality of gun to your hand. You don't pull the trigger if you fail. I pull all my data together and we had been 98.7 legitimate on time on thousands of shipments in this plant. I have all my stuff. I've laid it out. I've done my homework. I'm going to make this presentation. I'm thinking, well, adversity is opportunity, right?

Right. Yeah. What else can you prepare for? Yeah.

I sit down. I started having a discussion and I said, “We're almost – 1% of all shipments that arrive later are a failure.” Apparently, he'd been to a seminar, because I spent the next thing, like forever. I'm sure it was 10 minutes. He went through a list of what 1% means. I'm hearing 200 babies dropped a day in the delivery room. 6,000 prescriptions filled wrongly every minute. It just kept going and going and going and going.

Well, the guy that I actually worked with is sitting over in the corner. Of course, he looks like Walter Cronkite. He's looking at a paper, which he's really not looking at a paper, but he's just acting like he's not in the conversation. He's checking something off, or whatever.

Just write doodle somewhere. Yeah.

The guy, the plant manager gets up and walks out, just abruptly walks out and says, “We're going to have to seek improvement on this.” I'm like, “Okay, it's a challenge.” Get down to a half a percent.

Sure.

I look over at my direct contact and I said, “Where were you?” I said, “Why didn’t you jump in there?” He says, “Well, when you deal with him,” he said, “You need to know when to hold and when to throw him.”

He goes, “I got to be here after you leave, man.” Yeah.

Yeah. True story.

I thought you were going to drop back. If I could get out of here with 1% less of you scolding me, I'd be a lot better.

I coined the phrase. I used to always use that in freight. “You're like a jet fighter pilot. You're as good as your last landing.”

Yeah. Hey, I'm in sales. You’re as good as your last month. Then the new one hits and it goes, “Who are you? Why do you think you're special again?” Yeah.

My 98.7 on time didn't mean much there.

I like that. Well, Andy, I think we've talked about a good amount of things here and especially from the automotive manufacturing and logistics there. What I want to talk to you now about is, where do you think, future-wise, where do you think things are going? Is there any big jumps that need to happen? I mean, as I always say, minus teleportation coming down the pipe, where do you see technology further ingratiating into this industry and the mechanisms and the processes that you're heavily involved in?

I think, and as you know from some of our interactions, I think from a technology side, I think there's more and more emphasis being put on integration of systems. I think the downside to that is that nobody – integration is a big word, right?

Yup.

Can you link to our system? You hear that. The integration's been being driven, but it's not really being understood, or clarified as to what they really want to see on the other side of the integration.

Everything's plugging in, but no one stopped to think, “Hey, what's the big picture and the result of all of this together?”

Exactly. I think, the fine tuning of the ERPs, the integration between TMSs, management systems, all that, I think is it’s going to drive forward. I think we got a long way to go, because I think, first of all, there's so many systems, people have so many different ways of doing things.

We integrate so many different ways to so many different systems. It's always funny. Someone's like, “Do you have a reference for that?” I'm like, “I’m sure I do, but it –” We plug into it, and whoever you talk to won't be the same way that they plugged into it. It won't be the same way you want it.

Well, I think the other issue is sometimes the organizations that want to drive that don't necessarily want to standardize and comply and change their processes to adhere to the automation. As you and I both know, you can develop these systems to get as close as you can to the way business is done with an organization. At some point, the business has to make some calls, “Okay, we'll do this this way now. We won't do this this way.” That's a constant struggle. Then I think when you throw in the influence of sales and marketing, you can have the best thing on paper ever for getting something out the door and deliver to a customer.

98.7.

Yeah. At the end of the day, sales walks in and says, “Well, this account won't allow us to do it this way.”

I got you.

You have that back and forth and consensus struggles, I think. I do think your integrations with systems, and I think that's almost the buzzword now.

Definitely.

People will drive to that. I also think from a technology standpoint, good. To me, there's proactive management and reactive management.

Okay.

Proactive is visibility, ASNs, vendor notifications, things like that. Reactive to me is more of data, data analysis, the reporting, paid actual reporting. You and I have had a lot of conversations about actual pay – a good claim paid freight reporting.

100%.

Then you're going to continue to evaluate patterns and changes. One tool you guys have, which I'm actually talking to a lot of my customers about right now is the Power BI tool. There's a great tool in it. To me, it takes the spreadsheet and makes it interesting, right? It's PowerPoint on steroids.

That's right. From your point, is that a proactive, or is that a reactive aspect of the management?

Well, I think it can be both. Proactive, meaning you're going to implement it, utilize it. Reactive, meaning that, to me, the whole Power BI really shows you what's happened. It gives you graphic examples of –

I like that.

 - the trend and where you're going. As you know, it can be really bad information, but a real pretty PowerPoint page goes a long way in a room with top management.

I like that. Well, I have to get you on the marketing team with that one. Tell tough stories with great pictures with Power BI. No. I mean, yeah. It's got the colors.

It could be a negative report, but you can sure make it look good.

That's right. It's got the maps, it’s got the visuals and the dashboards. I like that. No. I think that I really liked your call out, just because I'm dealing with it day in and day out, that integration between systems without change management negates a lot of the powerful benefits of integration and the automation tools.

Yeah. I see it every day. It's companies want to automate. They want to increase their technology, but they do not want – they don't want to change the flow through the organization. They get so much with this –

They get stuck with the same obstacles, just with new high-tech gear. Yeah. All right, Andy. We're coming to a close here. Like I always say, I got about six or seven people that watch and subscribe to this, maybe even nine now that we've been doing enough of them. Here's my platform for you. What's your message to anyone listening or watching, whether that's personal, whether that's a prompt for a TMCO advertisement, or just some guides on how to have the best mustache in the room? What do you got for me?

Well, I would ask people to, be at TMCO or anybody else, I would ask people not to be embarrassed to seek help. This is a try to rate a shipment anymore. Unless, you want to spend a lot of time – To me, if I'm a widget manufacturer, I want to pay the people to sell and manufacture widgets. I don't want to invest a lot of time in managing my business. However you go about it, seek professional help and expertise. The other thing I'm going to say, and I sincerely mean this, find a company like Banyan, or somebody that's using a Banyan like we do in our organization, because you're going to have the tools and the support to get to your end result.

Hey, obviously, I'm very biased and I couldn't agree more with that one last one, Andy. I got a beer for you the next time we actually meet up.

Yeah, you can beat the rates up so much. At some point, it becomes a user situation. It's how you use your rates, not how you be a carrier over the head to reduce.

I like that. I think we'll go with that. Special thanks to Andy Ferrand of TMCO. It's how you use your rates, not necessarily what rates you have. Thank you, everybody. Continue to watch. We'll put out more here. I know that I had a great time on this talk. Andy, thank you so much for your time, your stories and your expertise. Everybody, watch it. Stay tuned for another exciting episode of Banyan Technology’s Tire Tracks Podcast. As always, I'm Patrick Escolas. My hair is immaculate, and we'll see you next time.